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Post by Cody ( The Patriot ) on Feb 27, 2008 13:53:06 GMT -5
I never heard that about salt before .Joanne i dont mind fleshing at all but Id rather be beat than grain one ,just too rough on my shoulders .And far as Matts way I have followed it as good as I could and havent got one to come out on the first try yet so Ive more gone to Vickys way anymore I just have given up expecting one to come out on one try like matt shows ,It could be me I dont know .Joanne wonder if there is a way of using the salt thing on those bad old beavers? The only thing I havent got to where I understand yet is the bucking or not to buck thing .Is it just a trade between more work not doing it .I have watched other videos by other folks that dont buck and some look like they are just working harder to pay for not bucking and some dont but all end up with the same in the end .Vicky and Joe dont buck and their deer are alot bigger than ours mostly and they have to be thicker and harder to get soft and they end up fine .Im so confused .
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Post by joanne on Feb 27, 2008 14:11:18 GMT -5
Yep well my experience with the bucking way is about the same ratio as yours I would imagine.. I have never used the KOH but I'm sure it is the best.. it is also more money and I just can't see spending the $ on it personally as I can soften skins without bucking them as well as I can by bucking them.. so the difference is I'm spending the money on something else.. really if the Dinsmores had and updated version of their tanning method I'd buy it just to watch, see how they do it.. Too bad they're out in the middle of MT! yeah I read about that stacking skins salted for more then 30 days thing on the Wikipedia thing on tanning skins or something like that.. says right off it is a modern tannage part of the process and when i read it I thought.. well I'll be damned. Salt cured.. I haven't been a heavy user of salt and have actually avoided it's use.. hell I pretty near killed an old cherry tree with dumping saltwater too close to it.. so it's not something that you really want to dump off just anywhere, really. another point about the alum taw is that there is more salt in the 'pickle' than there is alum and water so salt is the main ingredient to that method. hey salt attracts moisture and there are reasons to avoid it but really aside from having skins that can tear pretty easily if the oils aren't in the skins.. It seems to be pretty easy to soften skins with it.. but then you don't have your beading quality tanned skins so there really isn't anything so nice as braintanned buckskin IMO.. don't tell those folks on the taxidermy forum anything like that or you will be quickly outnumbered by folks that will even tell you that braintanned skins are inferior and I'm like, "WHAT? " how could they think like that? well anyway, I'm sure that fur skins are much more easily accomplished, softened alum taw tanning them and well I don't care if they do start to deteriorate in 20 years.. what the heck does look good after 20 years, hopefully our offspring here can figure out how to tan their own daing skins! Ok here ya go.. here is the link to the info on tanning hides and skins. Geez oh pete's.. I gotta do something constructive today! Must be od'ing on the bunn coffee, lol,, apologize for my totally longwinded posts.. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tanning
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Post by beaudro on Feb 27, 2008 18:33:12 GMT -5
I can say that I have done good with bucking, lime is working fair, ashes is working some better, koh does seem to be best , but I'm never consistent and I get hides that I think i have ruined because I can't get the buck out of them. I can't solve the problem when it happens, but I feel if I can stay away from calcites and high ph it will remedy the problem, I'm glad you guys are pointing out that your not using bucking. I have never used salt, as I freeze my hides, it would be one more chemical in the shop if I start using it , but if I can get rid of lime and only have salt to worry about it would be great, i'd sweep it up and trash it, end of story. Lime on the other hand you can't just sweep it up.
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Post by paskinner on Feb 27, 2008 20:45:38 GMT -5
My experiance with salt is that is no big deal. I don't even rinse it off anymore before fleshing, just put them in water, salt and all. Probably helps keep the bacteria at bay, but I rarely soak them for more than a few days, anyway. You do have to be careful where you dump that salt water, it pretty much kills all vegetation.
Salted hides get easier to soften with time. So does rawhide for that matter, one method not discussed on here is just scraping the hide, stretching it and leaving it age, like Melvin does.
Another method not often applied to braintan is bating. I've experimented with it a lot and it does have a positive effect. Basically it makes the hides stretch easier, so that's another non bucking method for someone to play with. Couple handfuls of chicken crap in a couple gallons of real warm water, strain it if you don't want much staining, leave the hide in overnight, then dry your hide out, brain and proceed. Another possible bate is rettin, it is commonly used in cheese making and was once used at a bate commercially, look it up.
As far as braining once, my advice is to do some kind of pre-stretch and brain twice, regardless of your method. I do some hides with one braining, but I really like the way two brainings makes softening easier. For thin hides and hand softening, one braining is fine, if you want to work that hard.
For easier graining the up right beam is great. I'm not as fast with it, but you can pretty much stand with your back straight and just pull down, much easier on the bod.
If you do choose to buck, ph paper is cheap, even a ph meter is not that much-thirty- forty bucks, and will allow you to KNOW that your hide is rinsed well every time. So, it's not traditional. Neither are power washers, pvc beams, using fans to dry hides, using parachute cord or plastic twine and so on...
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Post by beaudro on Feb 27, 2008 22:05:34 GMT -5
When I first started bucking I was going to use a ph meter, i could have gotten one from work, but again I thought I could cheat. It probably would do me some good, but I've gotten to where I can tell if a hide is neutralized good by the way it feels. However, after a week, and stirring, changing the water and replacing the vinegar that hide should be good. My problem may be this,, after removing a hide from the buck, i'll hit it with a water hose, then throw it on the beam, let it drip a little, then start graining. Usually about an hour I'm done, I might put the skin aside for now and work on another or two. Then I might clean up the shop, go to lunch, then finally I get out the cleaner buckets and water and vinegar. That first hide has now almost turned to rawhide,, more like halfway there. That is usually the hide I have the most trouble with, I think Metcalf has said that this is a mistake. I see it on the floor of my shop , it's coated with lime and even vinegar can't remove it. Once that stuff sets up it's like a rock. I'm assuming that it's turned into a rock on that hide and thats why I"m having trouble getting brains to work on it..
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Post by Buckskin Billy on Feb 27, 2008 22:47:58 GMT -5
do you have a pond or a creek you can soak it in? i have a pond down the road from where i live and i soak my hides in it for a couple of days after i buck. i then half ass membrane it soak it in 4 gallons of warm water with 1/2 cup of vinager for about 20 minuets. stir a couple of times throw it out and let it dry. it's worked good for me. i brain twice wring twice,soften smoke,if needed brain again, half ass soften again and if i want a darker color smoke some more.my only problem with the buck is when the weather chchch changes( on me during the buck.down here it will be 29 degrees in the morning and 80 degrees that afternoon. the next day will 75 degrees all day and the next it won't get out of the 40's. i've used only koh and try to buck for only 3 days.but if the temperature changes during that time i'm screwed.sounds like a lot of work but i'm sure all will agree that this is a labor of love.i would rather be doing some part of braintanning in the afternoons than numbing my brain by watching t.v. just my thoughts
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Post by Cody ( The Patriot ) on Feb 27, 2008 23:02:36 GMT -5
What is the reason for after braining to let them dry out ?I have heard that hides that have been dried to start with are hard to grain is that true ?I watched Robert Earthworms video and after he brains his hide he dries it then rinses it out in the creek and then softens it he doesnt rebrain it he just rinses and works it ,and only brained it once at that .I brain mine several times to make sure brains are in there as well as can be and still have problems sometimes ,I may not get mine rinsed well enough if I had to geuss and I have been useing water system water.
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Post by longtrail on Feb 27, 2008 23:58:19 GMT -5
Well I have a solution to my dilema. Phew. We first got recognition about our Pre-smoke method years and years ago on the Native Tech site. I have written to Tara Prindle, founder and maintainer of the site and asked if she would care to publish our revised version of our method on the Native Tech site and remove the other two articles, which are very outdated. The reason I want to have it published on the Native Tech site is that it will be dated, and even though I can not stop anyone from using the information as their own, at least they will have to read it on the NT site and it will be dated and will be our information we have discovered after so many, many years of trial and error, and trying to figure out how to make the brain tanning process easier and easier. So between now and next monday, I will be working on my article and polishing it up nice an shiney for the NT site. You will be able to copy it from there, or request I send you a copy from here on my computer. I think it will be too lengthy to post on the BR site. So I am relieved. It has bothered me to be bragging on our method, about how wonderfully soft and consistant our hides are and how easy they are to do, and then being a closed mouth beotch, and not saying anything about how we do it. We still plan on doing a dvd, seeing is always more helpful. And no matter how many times I ask JOe not to film me from the back, it is nearly unavoidable hahahahahaha. And I promise not to say Kukkinpot. Just a hicks from the sticks!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I am really enjoying this site, hats off to Griz and Billy for starting it up. I feel like I'm home when I get to BR. I am so glad to see all the creations people make and all the information on so many subjects. There is more to life than tanning hides, and BR leaves the world open for discussion!!!!!!!! Lovin it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! lt www.nativetech.org/
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Post by paskinner on Feb 28, 2008 1:05:35 GMT -5
On bucking, I just water soak and scrape. I don't like scraping bucked hides, besides doing it this way eliminates all the uneven bucking, etc. After scraping I buck them for a day usually, and neatralize overnight with the AS, (you can also use baking soda) then drop the ph farther with the vinegar. I don't think anyone can really tell exactly where the ph is by feel, that's why people have hit and miss results.
Cody, yeah drying them out with the hair on tends to make graining harder. Oh and I don't like lime at all for braintanning, too hard to get the residue out of the hide. Just my opinion.
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Post by joanne on Feb 28, 2008 6:01:07 GMT -5
I have a great idea of just who is doing the hitting and missing like you're suggesting PA. I've read the 'draft' here.
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Post by Cody ( The Patriot ) on Feb 28, 2008 9:17:56 GMT -5
LT its so funny I am watching your video just this minute and my wife walked in just as you said Kukkinpot ,its ok we all hicks here.
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Post by paskinner on Feb 28, 2008 10:08:26 GMT -5
I have a great idea of just who is doing the hitting and missing like you're suggesting PA. I've read the 'draft' here. Who? Who? Spell it out of for me please, the cold is affecting my brain. It's still below freezing in the shop this morning, so I have time to argue, lol. Every braintanner I know of has hit and miss results that require an extra braining at times. It might be one hide in 50, but it happens. When we experiment with new methods, it happens more often-that's how you learn. Oh, by the way, if you are referring to Matt, he did mention the problems he was having on his own site, so I don't think he was hiding anything.
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Post by joanne on Feb 28, 2008 11:43:46 GMT -5
Ok .. yep it's really cold here too! don't worry I'm already in hysterics over the Taxidermy.net forum and some guy named Cyclone.. ok so I was inciting the guy to respond.. those guys on there are forever talking about the horrors of tanning with alum yet lots of tans are alum based anyway.. so I just dropped in to put my more than two cents in.. yeah I know you're all surprised huh? and this dude responds by tellin me that I need to 'get back on my meds and quit tanning with Viagra." I mean really I think I'll laugh all day about that one.. he quickly deleted his post so I reposted it for him.. being the shit disturbing gal that I can be you understand.. hehe.. so this should be at least a little bit entertaining if not informative. gotta love the internet.
anyway no I wasn't referring to matt richards I was thinking of you actually when I made that comment.. sorry if you're surprised but it never fails to amaze me that you guys that spend a great deal of time on the braintan forum seem to have these like pat answers.. Like take for instance this bit about one hide in 50.. You can't bullshit me, PA. Bob K has used an extremely similar response. I mean maybe a newbie to hide tanning you can fool but you sure aren't going to run that same malarkey on me. I've read the Dinsmores method in a rough draft and why did I get a preview because of the same reasons you do? I search for Everything I can get my hands on to read about braintanning hides and skins. So both you and bob K better get up REAL early in the morning to peddle this jazz and you know that it is.. I really think that you missed what the Dinsmores have found.. you overlooked something about prebraining and presmoking hides.. well hey you had their video so when things didn't work out consistently you tried chicken sh*t and every other thing under the sun when the answer was there all the time.. well she'll be posting them for you all to read.. nothing like a little pressure on you eh? LT?? haha.. glad it's your butt and not mine gonna be in that new video to be but no, PA. I think that you really need to stop and consider the source here. Joe Dinsmore's only been tanning hides for like what ball park figure of 10 years or so.. heavy on the so, longer than you? You think that he might not have picked up a little something more than you have??
ok.. so now that that's said.. what kind of problem is matt having on his own site? trouble in paradise?? no! you mean you can screw up using KOH too?? why am I NOT surprised?? ok.. well I gotta go cut some more wood for the stove!.. I knew last summer I should've put up one more bundle of hardwood.. brrrr.. ah not that cold.. IT SURE IS OUTSIDE.. have to wait till this weekend to get out the washer.. supposed to be in the 40's woo hoo! catcha later. Ps.. sure that if you can get consistant results by not having to buck your hides you may be doing some serious reconsidering yourself Loren.. don't be too quick on the trigger.. you can blow off your own foot! Don't be p'd off at me. I don't want to argue.. took me two years to figure that sh*t out about the lime residue.. man did that ever perturb me to learn that crap! Don't think that I haven't been fair about my opinion about bucking hides or NOT.
And one last little word.. ain't nothing easy about this stinking business either! So I'd give the Dinsmore's a bit of trouble on that word!
later.. much later.. got a bag to make and skins to tan. I'll get out of all your faces.
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Post by paskinner on Feb 28, 2008 12:46:12 GMT -5
;D I don't know what you're going on about, Joanne, nor why I should feel any pressure, since I don't see where I've made any unreasonable statements, just my opinions and what I've experienced. I have no grudges against anyone, never met a braintanner I didn't like, but you know we love ya anyway.
Like I said, I hope to learn something new from Joe and Vicki, that I've missed up to now, I have nothing but respect of their tanning abilitys.
Got to go frame some hides..have a good one.
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Post by joanne on Feb 28, 2008 13:07:58 GMT -5
Good...Glad you're finally coming around to seeing things MY way.. geez took long enough! You coulda saved yourself a little of that UNDUE pressure you were feeling by not insisting on an argument cause if you're looking for one now I've got a bone to chip or something like that/or I'm already a bit agitated and HOT under the color a bit.. and I guess you can see now that I'll just level you with both barrels till the subject is just totally DEAD Dead dead and you KNOW that I am Not afraid to touch any thing that's dead... Now if you weren't so doggone slow you'd have noticed that these southern guys around here already know better!!! We just get along fine! They are SO COOL! HMM Hope that's settled once and for all.. Geez how DOES Liza put up with you??? Gosh darn man anyway..Don't answer that!
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