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Post by beaudro on Apr 29, 2011 20:37:34 GMT -5
almost finished today finally, they still need more polishing. The first is a spanish belduque, integral bolster. Next is a group of this weeks knives, two red handled scalpers and two cartouche knives with integral bolsters.
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Post by james on Apr 30, 2011 0:09:53 GMT -5
Nice work Beaudro, I am still working on the hudson bay camp knife.
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Post by beaudro on Apr 30, 2011 0:31:30 GMT -5
good to know your still around James, what you been working on lately?
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Post by phoenix1967 on Apr 30, 2011 13:54:43 GMT -5
Brother you are developing a formidable amount of style... That spanish integral is beautiful.
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Post by intothewest1836 on May 2, 2011 23:43:17 GMT -5
hey bueadro whats the story behind the scalpers. can you tell me how big and what they are made out of. how much would you sale one for.
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Post by beaudro on May 3, 2011 0:50:44 GMT -5
Hey Joe, long time no see. The scalpers from that pic are already gone , they don't last long. I can make you one real quick though. The story behind them is everyone started making them after some research circulated about red handled scalpers. The Brits made the red handled ones , the french used boxwood. Mine do not have the Cross and L stamp but I've got a stamp being made and might be here soon. The knives are thin, as the originals, I start with a 1/16th stock. Mine are filled with pitch and brick dust at the handle as the originals also. Most of these have three pins, and then the center pin is awkwardly off center , it actually runs through the handle at an angle and comes out one side off center. I used bloodwood on mine, it was mentioned in guild documents as being used, apparently England was running low on local wood and since they had their fingers into every country on the map they would utilize the exotic woods of other countries. France used the boxwood , it's indigenous to the country. Oak is mentioned in the Sheffield Knife history as NOT being used, in fact it was a bad thing to mention in the guilds. Hickory shows up later in the 19th century as most common, but not early. The scalper , or trade knife or whatever you want to call it, is real common, but remember it's intended for natives. A white trappers most common knife is a pocket knife, then a butcher.
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Post by intothewest1836 on May 3, 2011 10:15:25 GMT -5
thank you beaudro , so a butcher would be better for a trapper?
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Post by beaudro on May 3, 2011 12:01:40 GMT -5
Since I know you are recreating 1836 Osborne Russell , here's what is in his inventory and his own descriptions. His men buy scalpers more than any other party it would appear, but they don't talk about using them, when they describe in journals it's always a butcher.
"whilst not an article for defense excepting our butcher Knives"
"We then let ourselves down by cutting steps with our butcher knives and the breeches of our guns"
now, here's some inventory. First is Joseph Gale who buys all three.
"10-Jun-35-- 1 jackknife $1.500 " "12-Jun-35-- 1 scalping knife $1.125" "12-Jun-35-- 1 butcher knife $1.125"
After Russell's term of service was over in Oct. he came back to Capt. Thing and bought these for himself. The red handled butcher is odd, could be the word butcher and scalper are interchanging here. If so, then all bets are off as to what is most common. The fall hunt is over and he is wintering with Bridger when he buys these. " 17-Nov-35-- 2 scalping knives $2.250" " 20-Nov-35-- 1 7 inch butcher knife $1.125" " 06-Dec-35-- 1 butcher knife red handled $1.125" " 27-Nov-35-- 1 6 inch butcher knife $1.125"
Next is Patterson's sundries, the scalping knife is all he buys. " 23-Oct-35-- 1 scalping knife $1.125 " " 26-Oct-35-- 1 scalping knife $1.125" " 27-Nov-35-- 1 scalping knife $1.125"
You have to be careful about reading these journals, it may not mean the trapper bought the knives for his own use, here they are preparing to winter and they are likely buying for squaws or other trade of their own. Russell at this point is on his own hoof , and described as a free trapper, when winter is over he will be looking for work again. The dates they are bought have reason, goods weren't just laid out on a blanket , they were packed in different bales and marked. It took several days to go through them and sometimes you had to wait until the bales were opened. When a bale, barrel, crate or box was opened the trading began and it took hours to make all the deals with hundreds of natives, then finally another was opened.
I'm to think the scalpers and the butchers get mixed up on different accounts. So it's real hard to actually say one is more common. If you look at the prices you'll see once where a butcher cost more than a scalper, then another time a butcher is the same price as a scalper. If the MOFT is correct, many of the butchers were full tang, the scalpers were half tang. But the half tang I. Wilson butchers were around , it's possible they could be considered a scalper. I don't think a half tang scalper would be a trappers first choice, I think he bought them for his own trading purposes, especially for the native women. This kept them working, as winter was coming on in Russell's example. His choice was probably a camp knife, or any other heavy knife, but it had to be available to him and they were expensive. Any better knife than a butcher at mountain prices could cost as much as a trade gun, so thats why the butchers are so common.
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Post by ThunderMoon on May 4, 2011 0:19:10 GMT -5
James did the sheath for this one,i love it!And i should have left him alone,i sort of rushed him on it,my apologies James,i forgot how labor intensive beading is and now i know how to tie it on my belt,he did it the old way..I am a big fan of this blade style now,that thing is sharp !! If i had to fight with one this would be my go to knife~~
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Post by phoenix1967 on May 4, 2011 19:11:24 GMT -5
Yeah, I wouldn't wanna rush ole James... He's a super nice guy, but I wouldnt wanna rile him! 'sides, jus' thinkin about havin to play with alla them tiny beads makes my orifice itch!
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Post by ThunderMoon on May 7, 2011 22:29:14 GMT -5
ZACTLY!
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Post by Cody ( The Patriot ) on May 7, 2011 23:32:58 GMT -5
thems mighty fine Bo
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Post by james on Jul 10, 2011 19:08:06 GMT -5
No problem Thundermoon. Give me howler if you want to get to do it agion and we both can be better prepared .Nice work beaudro you are showing alot of skill there. I hate to get the full tang flat for scales.The spanish belduque looks great.There a style of knife that it reminds me of That i would love to make but it going to be a challange for me Samuel Bell knives are an eye catcher.This link well give you an idea of what they look like . My google searching powers are not to strong today.
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Post by beaudro on Jul 10, 2011 23:29:31 GMT -5
.Nice work beaudro you are showing alot of skill there. I hate to get the full tang flat for scales.The spanish belduque looks great.There a style of knife that it reminds me of That i would love to make but it going to be a challange for me Samuel Bell knives are an eye catcher.This link well give you an idea of what they look like . My google searching powers are not to strong today. I didn't see a link James, but I did look up Samuel Bell in LG4 , it's on page 323 at the top of the page. The origin of a belduque is hard to figure out. Generally it's thought of as a spanish knife, but many of them are Belgium, It's likely that one copied another until it evolved into what we know today as spanish made. A few originals that I've seen were really amazing. What I really wanted was to find one in the rocky mountain fur trade, but even as far south as the trappers went it's not showing up. Only one description possibly means a belduque , the description is something like " the Mexicans here have few guns, but carry swords on their waist and a large knife attached to a scabbard on their leg below the knee" Thats similar to a gaucho , and only a slight possibility it's a belduque style of knife. It's odd they were carrying swords , and it appears there was an abundance of them. When a fur company arrived the usual dress was called for , the men would wear a bright red sash and attach their swords and knives, as if it were a uniform dress to wear when the fur companies arrived. Anyway, the integral bolster on the belduque means a complicated and skilled way of making a knife, I started with a spring fullering tool like this one.
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Post by james on Jul 11, 2011 8:41:17 GMT -5
Looks good , Another took I need to make. Is that a russion anvil?
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