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Post by twistedmetalworks on May 6, 2011 7:47:40 GMT -5
Yesterday a buddy showed me a Marve Palmer patchknife. He baught it from smokey knifworks magazine, It has "Wrangler" stamped across the blade, had DMP (Marvs initials) stamped near the shoulder of the blade. Now this knife was advertised as a Damascus blade, But Its not. the blades are submerged in a acid bath and heated, the acid produces Hydrocloric gas and the bubbles etch the blade in a particular way that gives it a Damascus appearance. I'll get a pic today to show ya all. Marve makes a fine knife for sure but it peeves me somthin awful when someone markets a item as somthin its not.
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Post by ThunderMoon on May 6, 2011 11:06:26 GMT -5
That's why smokeymountainknives.com sales them so cheap...Real demascuss is just a thing of art and i think there is only about 15 guys in the U.S. that are cerified to make the real thing.Jusy what i was told as far as making the stock for blades.This knife was made from one of those 15...
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Post by beaudro on May 6, 2011 16:17:47 GMT -5
I know Marvin Palmers knives , they are not layered/laminated/pattern welded or so called damascus knives of course. He used a process that some are calling fire etching. Lots of people are doing this now, it's basically rubbing a chemical on the blade, vinegar is often used, then heating it. It stains the surface of the metal, thats all. There are so many fakes out there in the knife world.
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Post by twistedmetalworks on May 6, 2011 16:53:31 GMT -5
Well I didnt know ya had to be certified to make damascus, hehe, I've made plenty and it is the real thing. I also have to disagree on damascus just being a thing of art, I'ts my personal opinion that damascus is some of the toughest steel out there, hold an edge like no other and are nearly indistructable if heat treated properly. samuri didnt use it because it was pretty. thanks to all fer yer coments, its nice to have a forum and hear the opinions of other.
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Post by ThunderMoon on May 7, 2011 0:38:41 GMT -5
GOOD POINT I should say it can be art..As for being certified just something i read and was told by a knife maker.
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Post by phoenix1967 on May 8, 2011 11:07:39 GMT -5
OK, Part of my reason for hanging out on the Forums is to educate folks in the craft and STOP the spread of disinformation. What we call damascus steel nowadays IS NOT DAMASCUS... It is Pattern welded steel. Damascus was a crucible smelt steel that was made in India, from 1300 to 1500, and when the smiths at damascus (that's where it got it's name BTW) forged and heat treated it, carbide banding created these layers that showed up in the steel. they called it "Wootz" The English knights fighting the Saracens found that the steel was much superior to thier own (higher carbon, better heat treat and temper methods) and created all maner of magical reasons and deeds attributed to them. The FACT was the smiths were better at damascus than in the european shops, and had a higher carbon steel to work with. Pattern welded steel is a different animal. Like they say, "Elephants are grey, but not everything grey is an Elephant" Pattern welding was used to make a small amount of high carbon steel go a long way, to refine otherwise poor steel and iron, and yes, as ART. The Japanese Made steel from Iron rich black sand. A master smith would sort through and seperate the new made steel into 3 piles, from high to low carbon. The low and medium carbon pieces would be given to apprentices to refine by forge welding... basically heating beating and folding. The ONLY purpose of this was to force out the slag and impurities and mix the steel up well enough that it was close to the same everywhere. The master smith did the same with the high carbon bits. This process created that maidenhair pattern in the steel, as the thousands of layers developed from hundreds of folds. Again, this was just a process to homogenize the steel. The end result was something near to our current medium carbon steel 1050. Most knifemakers won't even play with 1050, it is too low in carbon. The genious of the Japanese swordmakers, and the source of the seeming magical properties of the swords they made, were in the design, construction, and heat treating. I intend to take a piece of RR track and duplicate those properties sometime here soon, as a demonstration. I'll start a different thread soon on the art of japanese swordmaking. The Vikings used a method much closer to the new "Damascus", and CALLED it pattern welding. They did it 'cause good steel was difficult to make and needed to be conserved. The Iron they got from thier Blooms needed to be worked just like the steel the Japanes made. We call it wrought Iron. The Vikings tended to carry thier steel in the form of Rods. A guick Google on "Sutton Hoo" will show a beautiful recreation of a viking era sword. The rods would be twisted toether, welded, stacked, welded again, etc till a sword blade formed, then a High carbon rod would finally be welded to the edges. This made a sword that was nearly impossible to break, but held an excellent edge. So let's Recap With our new, homogenous steels, and our scientific understanding of the chemistry and microstructure of steel and heat treating, all these things are no longer necessary... that means pattern welding is for LOOKS only... in my book, that makes it art. You dont have to be certified to make damascus (though some of us ARE certifiable ) and I can mention off the top of my head at least a dozen good smiths that can make ya a billet if you wish to make a knife from it. Most of the Hype and disinformation is from advertizers. That patch knife is no worse for having a surface treatment for decoration, though the advertiser should be lynched.
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Post by beaudro on May 8, 2011 13:41:29 GMT -5
That is the reason I said , "so called Damascus" . In the beginning of the Damascene recipe's for steel there was more than one type. Wootz Damascus is one type , very soon came another and another. What made the True Damascus so special is thought to be the certain impurities in the contents. As soon as true damask hit the market there was a huge influx of spanish, french, english, german and more countries trying to imitate it. Some countries would not reveal the recipe for their steel. It's all in the word, if it was called pattern welded steel things would be different today. The original Damascus has real small patterns, not like today's imitation where the pattern lines are seperated by a wide thick piece. From across a room you cannot see the patterns well , an average photo won't show them well. The patterns aren't made intentionally , the idea was to make a better steel not make an impressive artsy pattern. It can kick a guys pride when he learns his favorite knife isn't real damascus , but again the knife world is full of fakes and knockoffs, and much of it is accepted as the norm and we buy it anyway. We know wrestling is fake ,,, but it's entertaining to watch anyway.
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Post by beaudro on May 8, 2011 14:01:41 GMT -5
Here's a picture of an original Damascus blade. It's even hard to see the patterns until you get a close up photo of it. What your seeing is pearlite , inclusions , and parts of the elements. All metal has some silicone in it , but the original damask has a high content of silicone and magnesium.
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Post by phoenix1967 on May 8, 2011 14:55:33 GMT -5
I agree 100% Beaudro, That's why I took the time to spell it out... I hate typing, but I hate lies and misconceptions more. The pattern came from trace elements, unintentionally, till folks tried imitating it. The legends grew to help sales. I know I probably stepped on some toes, and while it WAS intentional to do that, I'm sorry all the same. Pattern welded steel IS an art, and done with our new steels and techniques, it can make a great knife... But so can one of Beaudro's trap springs.... It's simple... a good smith will make a good knife, no matter the materials involved.
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Post by ThunderMoon on May 8, 2011 15:26:12 GMT -5
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Post by beaudro on May 8, 2011 16:18:46 GMT -5
I don't make a knife from a trap spring...I make a trap spring however. (not sure what you meant).
It was not exactly India that had it going on thundermoon, England had it's fingers in India's business and tried to profit from their bronze age, the brits developed an industry there, the name Wootz is said to be and English name. In my opinion however, it's hard to tell what came first, the chicken or the egg. To some historians, Fiegel is one, it was not the quality of Damascus that led to it's history, it was more the quantity because India could produce so much of it cheap. Iron is one thing, steel is another. Iron could be made with just labor , not just anywhere, but it mainly took just labor. Steel, and good steel was in high demand, but it required a bigger industry set up and much knowledge. Basically any country able to produce edge quality steel was going to draw attention. So if you by that, it wasn't a pattern or art that countries wanted, it was just the steel, but it was even a bigger bonus if it could be mass produced cheap. Thus, Damascus. The shear steel used on trade knives isn't much different, in a sense it's damascus by modern standards. It's just layers of steel welded together, but the intent is to gain carbon percentage in the iron.
Damascus proved to work well in swords, but one of the reasons for this is because so many countries were out to buy cheap swords for military purposes. Damascus made cheap in India fit the bill just fine for some countries. The real art to Damascus might be recognized if you look at the heat treating process, instead of the elements. To temper a sword is much different that tempering a knife, and a razor was different again. Same goes with a gun barrel made from Damascus. Each tempering took different methods, thats probably where the real art was, and why so many wanted to get there hands on the market, but cheap is still the main reason for it's popularity.
Stainless came late, metalurgists were playing with the idea back in the early 1800's , but until furnaces were made to work special alloys not much happened with alloys like we have today. We are talking history that is greatly effected by politics and economics here.
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Post by twistedmetalworks on May 8, 2011 19:16:03 GMT -5
Spot on Fellas, you guys are a wealth of info. And I couldnt agree more that a good bladesmith will use appropriat heat treating methods to obtain favorable properties in a blade.
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Post by ThunderMoon on May 8, 2011 23:37:35 GMT -5
Now see that's what i love is getting info and then discussing it with folks who really study it and get the facts right.Sounds logical to me..Alot more logical now. You all that do it have my respect big time. I wish i was closer to folks like you so i could be side by side and try and learn the craft,i admire what you do..I operated heavy equipment for years and was good at it,but i always enjoyed being in the shop and watching the welders,mechanics,and the ones that used the forges there,them guys could do anything man,one guy even made a part for my old jukebox and it was not an easy task,it was a spring type thing that when hit by another piece cuased the records to slide out and play.I gave him the broke piece and he had it the next day with threads and all.I was amazed,i mean it was exactly the same...He got a real nice bottle of wine and some goodies for doin it for me.
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Post by phoenix1967 on May 8, 2011 23:46:11 GMT -5
Beaudro I was just reffering to one of the springs from one of your traps... Folks have made knives fro them, using the ring end as a pommel. I wasnt saying YOU did, sorry if I was unclear. I just used a trap spring as an example, like one in the traps that you use. India was able to make it cheap because they used a crucible method... They actually liquified the steel, something that didn't happen in europe till the advent of the blast furnace (Iron was made in bloomeries... another fun google trip ) The crucible method, (mixing metal powders and different elements inside a clay jar, then firing the jar till it all melted together) allowed for one other thing that is crucial for mass production of weapons...consistency with a formula or recipe to follow, each crucible of steel would be the same as the next... which meant the swords and knives made were consistent. One of the BEST arguments for not making knives from reused materials like bed frames, leaf springs, etc is consistency. One leaf spring from an old chevy might make a great knife, but the next spring you grab may be made from a low carbon, work hardened alloy that wont harden at all. The smiths at Damascus knew what they were getting, and were able to come up with a heat treating formula that worked well for that steel. Without consistency of materials, the heat treating was hit or miss.
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Post by beaudro on May 9, 2011 6:47:15 GMT -5
Maybe in 200 years someone can make a knife out of my trap springs. It'll be a rough one probably. With all the blade material out there, I have an appreciation for most all of it. I own an old wrought iron knife that for some reason I'm fond of , I've got several sheffield knives, and I've got a ceramic. I'm not sure if it's the material as much as it is the metallurgy that I like. I've got a Bob Dozer thats top of the line. I'm not a knifemaker, but I'm proud of a few I've made. I wouldn't call myself a blacksmith, or a tanner, bladesmith, horner, cooper, or gunsmith. I've only touched on some of the crafts mainly because I can't buy most of the things I need for re-enactment. I can't buy it because it's not being made anymore. My true calling might be in research and reconstructing the past, thats the challenge that lures me the most I guess.
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