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Post by joanne2 on Oct 7, 2008 22:59:03 GMT -5
I stand corrected, young lady! Tell me why do you do this..scrape the hides of the grain first?
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Post by longtrail on Oct 7, 2008 23:40:29 GMT -5
Are you asking me? And if so, I'm not sure I understand the question. You say "young lady" so not sure if you mean me, cause, well................ Here goes just in case. We scrape the grain off the hide during the dehairing process, which is the second step in our method, to allow the brains to soak into the hide better. We find that by fleshing them side to side, and then soaking them in water overnight, they are fairly easily removed of the hair, epidermis and the accompanying membrane which I think is refered to as the "grain" in some tanning circles.
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Post by joanne2 on Oct 8, 2008 0:14:01 GMT -5
No I was addressing the question to PAWeaver, LT. I personally see NO point in bucking unless the grain is coming off as mush. I'm sorry that I sometimes will choose the path of least resistance. However for newbies.. your way is the only way, LT. JMO.. but what do I know? I'm just old lady hide tanner and I don't care how they get tanned or how many hides I tan or if I sell any or if I trade any. Now wouldn't that make the wonderful old ones chuckle?
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Post by brainsoft on Oct 8, 2008 7:19:00 GMT -5
Thanks everyone for your input here and great pics as usual Paulette. First of all I am not saying anyone method will not work etc or one is best. There are several ways one can approach this activitity without doubt and all will produce similar results. I know several that buck and love it and have a system worked that gives them good results that are sell their hides with good results and are very satisfied with their results.
My main point was to try to determine why one bucks, aside from it being the way they started or choose to continue to do so. I can say I have bucked the last 30 hides and just am not satisfied with the results from them. I can also say that probably some of that at least may be my fault in part due to the varying temps that the bucking solution should be for the best results. My hides have all come out just too stiffy, not stiff, but not with the degree of suppleness I have seen from my work in the past.
But still they are good hides, not great ones. lol and having said that I know not all will be great hides. IT is a tricky business to get the results you want until each detail is nailed down and done on each hide to determine if that exact process will work for you. Sometimes yes and sometimes not quite yes but maybe another step thrown in such as a second braining. In the long run it is really up to the individual to determine which process he will use for the results wanted. It truly is a very personal thing what continues to amaze me after all these ears of doing this is on most hides I do there is still room for improvement. So it is a continuing challenge to get continious results.
Regarding Paulette's statement about no point in bucking unless the grain comes off in mush, I have never seen anything close to that. I tried once....just once...scraping a hide fully bucked and was not about to make a habit of holding on to or trying to hold on to a bucked hide while scraping. I wet scraped them both before bucking and after with better results. Bucking for easier grain removal is something I probably did not work enough on but really saw no point to it. Soaking it in water a day or two works fine.
As PA mentioned too, one should use whatever method makes them happy. This is probably more important than most people think as all methods will produce good results. Different to some degree, but still good. I think being happy with the way you are doing it and doing it consistant is the the best METHOD.
If I was a starting tanner, I would pick either the dry or wet scrape method and then proceed with the Dinsmore directions as it is in this tanners mind probably the best and easies to obtain excellent hides consistantly. I had to throw in dry or wet scraping as I am not a dedicated wet scraper. Personal preferences again rule here along with the happy thing.
Again thanks for all of your thoughts and pics. Nothing more interesting that a tanning debate IMO.
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Post by paskinner on Oct 8, 2008 8:59:55 GMT -5
I stand corrected, young lady! Tell me why do you do this..scrape the hides of the grain first? Because that's the way I learned her to do it. I don't like scraping swollen hides. For me, bucking has nothing to do with easier graining. Sometimes I will grain a tough neck after bucking and rinsing but that's rare. Now, I did find on goat hides that they grain a bit easier after soaking in lime, but I still don't like scraping swollen hides. There are some details you have to get right to get consistantly great hides with bucking and there are more varibles (ways to mess up) because perfect rinsing is so important, but it ain't rocket science. I really don't promote any one method to newbies, pick one you like and run with it. If someone doesn't understand what bucking does, they should use another method. If a Ford lover buys a Chevy he'll never be happy. Good post, brainsoft, got to go get more hides, you'uns have a good day.
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Post by joanne2 on Oct 8, 2008 9:16:53 GMT -5
I was always into Chevy's till I realized why I needed the extended warrantees.. now I love my Ford but I think those days and time's they are a changing..
The KOH really is the one bucking ingredient that is the best. I have had nothing but inconsistancies with all the rest! I don't feel that the ashes swell the skins like the other bucking agents do.. just that simple. Truly scraping a hide that's been suitably bucked is a marvel and so is using the ammonium sulfate to neutralize.. I hate waiting! Anyway.....if you're going to buck either use KOH or wood ashes and even then I do have to wonder if the skins will stand up to endurance testing as in moccasin gear but who gives a crap because they're always needing to be replaced anyway so trust me I'm not about to cut a hide down the center buck one and not buck the other just to do the 25 mile endurance test with a pedometer.. just too much stuff on my plate to do now..
Yes Jon.. I love the debates too.. how else to benefit? progress? and one more thing that totally coincides is the fact that...**the best route to take is often times a combination of several different paths.**
Happy tanning you all :-).
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Post by brainsoft on Oct 9, 2008 7:32:55 GMT -5
Good posts PA and Paulette!
One of my problems with the hides I bucked was using Lye, which I got off ebay. I finally got some KOH and to be honest my hides get mixed up as to what hide was bucked with what due to just putting them in the freezer in a stack until I get to finishing them. Some came out slightly better than others however.
As you mentioned PA, the rinsing is critical and in this step I think I have not been consistant and probably not entirely correct in my procedure. I have been aware of this fact but have not done good testing with it. I'm not really bashing one method at all, more wanting to know the why's and how's of it. I know there are those of you who have good success with bucking and there are specific reasons for doing it.
lol...if we all did the same method we would not be advancing our understanding of it all and some, myself included, just have to try this or that to see how it works. The problem there is you have to do it consistantly over time and several hides to get a good look at what your doing and if it works. Experimenting has it's problems and with someone like PA who makes his bread and butter from tanning he does not have the time to waste but needs methods that produce the green stuff!
I have to agree with you PA also in your saying you do not promote any method to newbies. It is just too personal regarding the different methods, IE..dry scrape, or wet scrape and what goes on from there. Wet Scrape is probably easier to learn for the folks who do not want to mess with making your own tools etc and for the well rounded tanner it is a must do or at the very least you need the knowledge and ability to do it as even when dryscraping a hide I throw it on a beam prior to braining and work it sideways to open up the fibers and somewhat even out the grain for a consistant surface. I do the same for hides I have wet scraped and am in doubt about the grain in that I stretch it and dry scrape over it. I stretch it wide when doing this.
The good thing about how you do a hide is no matter how it turns out, there is a use for it and someone will want it. Lots of talk on here about supples soft hides. I have one guy who wants stiffer hides or slightly more so that really supple for bag making. Easy enough to get those kind but the truly supple hides the Dinsmosres talk about is a bit harder for me using methods not 100% in accordance with their directions. I had so many bucked hides I am just now getting to where I will do them using strictly their methods.
But your right again PA in that it aint rocket science...lol...and how boring it would be if it was. Again thanks for your posts as I think I'm a bit wiser for them and happy tanning anyway you do it. Any way is a good way as long as your doing it!
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Post by page on Oct 9, 2008 20:49:11 GMT -5
WOW!! this brain tanning sure gets people a talk'in, so many ways of doing it just so confusing. buck, grain, dry scrap, wet scrap. i do have alot to learn
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Post by Buckskin Billy on Oct 9, 2008 21:56:34 GMT -5
just ask page and everyone here will be more than happy to help you get on the right track
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Post by brainsoft on Oct 11, 2008 8:04:34 GMT -5
WOW!! this brain tanning sure gets people a talk'in, so many ways of doing it just so confusing. buck, grain, dry scrap, wet scrap. i do have alot to learn Fawn, It is not really confusing when you get started if you simply follow one method. Like all things you do, you start doing one thing first. There may be a couple of ways to do a lot of the different steps but you just read a bit and pick one. Most of us here (or a lot of us for sure) have been doing have been doing this for a decade or two and doing anything for this long you will begin to have lots of ways to do anyone thing. Don't let it confuse you in the begining as it is not really complicated unless you let it be. Read the Dinsomore method in the begining of this thread and maybe print it out and go from there. Lot's of little steps but you only do one at a time and none are complicated. In the "doing", after you have read it all, you will find that out. Just keep it simple to begin with and get a hide tanned and you will be hooked to learn and do more. Having a curious mind gets you side tracked (don't ask me how I Know this either) and will only make the end result take longer. To begin with at least. All these methods work for a fact! Just pick one and do it. There are books and CD's on all the various methods but this thread contains one of the best.
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Post by Buckskin Billy on Oct 11, 2008 22:32:30 GMT -5
page, i'm still rather new to brain tanning this is my third year to be doing it, so i have still got a lot to learn. since i first stated i have been playing with several different methods and i have gotten real good results from all of them. its hard to say if one is better than the other, cuz each method has a different twist to it to make the hide come out better. the goal is to take a stinking slimy and bloody deer hide that most people find digusting and turn it into something that is beautiful soft fluffy and still feels as if there is still life in it. it can be done reguardless of what method you chose. like real estate location has a lot to do with how you do things. if water is not a problem , then wet scrapping is the easiest way to go. i didn't say the best i think all the methods are good. if water is a problem then you will be dry scrapping. i have most recently been using the dinsmore method with great results. i don't like messing with a hide thats been bucked. they're slimy smell funny and drys me out real bad. when it come to scrapping the hair off i cant tell a bit of difference in if a bucked hide will scrap easier than one that aint been bucked. to me it will either scrap with ease or fight you every inch of the way. you may find that if you have a power washer that will be the way for you to go. paulette uses one with good results. if i had access to one i would give it a try just for the heck of it just read the different methods thats on this site and other brain tanning sites ask the questions that you need ansewers on and get busy making some buck skins. cuz thats what it all about happy tanning
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Post by beaudro on Oct 12, 2008 15:58:54 GMT -5
Page, looks like your getting some good answers. To start tanning everyone follows a procedure, and they all produce. The hard part about learning is finding what works for you. Just don't get discouraged even if the fist one flops. The day will happen when your ready to soften and like magic you'll produce a hide that just amazes yourself. After that you will have found your method and the next one you'll only improve on . Just a learning curve, then it's addictive. On a historical note, if you portray anyone in the rendezvous era, the knowledge of brain tanning goes hand in hand. You'll be one step above the average buckskinner just knowing what brain tan looks like, but making it and wearing it is the most rewarding skill you can ever have. Allen.
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Post by page on Oct 12, 2008 19:34:13 GMT -5
thanks guy's for the support and encouragement, i was looking around in the shop last nite and pretty sure i got the scraper part under control, i got pvc pipe out by the barn and plenty of 2x lumber around, seen some pics on another site of some beam set ups. this ankle biz is not to bad more time to read and learn
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Post by Cody ( The Patriot ) on Oct 12, 2008 19:42:39 GMT -5
A good atitude is the best first step at anything and it looks like aint nothin keepin you down so plow on dear
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Post by fishinmusician on Jan 14, 2009 15:29:07 GMT -5
Hi all, I won the DVD in the contest that LT did and I just wanted to let you know this method does work! I just tanned 5 hides using this method and they all came out as nice as my nicest hides. I've been bucking hides from the start and was a bit skeptical. I was trying to decide if it was more or less work and if it would take longer. I think its less work, but takes about the same amount of time (days) as I was doing before. I really like not bucking, for it take the guess work out of wondering if you've rinsed out all the lye. I'm going to do my next 5 using their method and if I don't any any issues that I'm used to getting with bucked hides, I will be totally converted to this method. Thanks so much for sharing! It's great!! Dave
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