|
scales
Jun 3, 2011 3:48:03 GMT -5
Post by intothewest1836 on Jun 3, 2011 3:48:03 GMT -5
my new cartouch knife scales.
|
|
|
scales
Jun 3, 2011 4:20:59 GMT -5
Post by beaudro on Jun 3, 2011 4:20:59 GMT -5
Good job ! I better be the one to make your blade!
|
|
|
scales
Jun 6, 2011 21:11:34 GMT -5
Post by whitedove on Jun 6, 2011 21:11:34 GMT -5
Hello Allen, Have you made any new knives lately?I enjoyed the displays of those you posted in the previous weeks.There were many types,do you have any more you might post?I still keep thinkin what to do with the one I have but yet haven't come to a decision yet. I also enjoyed your displays of metals works.I'm thinkin back to the previous post on ironwork,I just basically enjoyed pattern,styles,etc.Yesterday,I did see some really interesting iron work at a church.They had a welded statue symbolic to the Cross.It represented Jesus,they used bolts,some type of wire around what would be as his head and just different types of metal.It was a work of Art.And they had it displayed in their foyer.I was helping in the building.That may be different then some of the work,that I see here..but it sure made me turn my head.I may have to wait for abit,but sometime if you would could you display a few pictures,of your ironwork.I always did enjoy it.I know outside of Bartleville,Ok there's a guy there,that has alot of metal work displays.And I've seen them in Grove,Ok also.But,they are pretty pricey.So,I thought maybe something more simple,and not real expensive.Maybe later,I can buy something...but I still like to look.I used to draw on Copper as a Child.I learned it from my dad.it It was simple but very pretty copperwork."Thank You"..
|
|
|
scales
Jun 7, 2011 16:47:59 GMT -5
Post by Cody ( The Patriot ) on Jun 7, 2011 16:47:59 GMT -5
How did you do that with a jewlers saw?
|
|
|
scales
Jun 7, 2011 20:04:09 GMT -5
Post by intothewest1836 on Jun 7, 2011 20:04:09 GMT -5
its one of my first castings cody. i dont know if i can do this good next time. beaudro does the smith so i figure i do some cast. it took a long time to get the mold on this
|
|
|
scales
Jun 7, 2011 21:26:42 GMT -5
Post by Cody ( The Patriot ) on Jun 7, 2011 21:26:42 GMT -5
that is outstanding work Im glad we keep these old skills going .It took me a while to figure out I cant do it all but am glad as many of the old skills get done .What will the voids be filled with?
|
|
|
scales
Jun 8, 2011 2:29:38 GMT -5
Post by intothewest1836 on Jun 8, 2011 2:29:38 GMT -5
here is a picture of the knive. the void is horn between the metal and the brass. wife may end up with this if beau does a good job on the blade. i better let him tell about the history part of the knife
|
|
|
scales
Jun 8, 2011 2:48:57 GMT -5
Post by beaudro on Jun 8, 2011 2:48:57 GMT -5
There are several cartouche knives actually, it's somewhat of a table knife like the plain handled one in Joe's picture. They are listed in trade records way on back and on up into the 1800's. The brass handled cartouche knives are called "inlaid" , but they are not actually inlaid, they just sandwich over horn scales with the blade handle in between. From trade ledgers: Invoice of Sundry Merchandise furnished Rocky Mountain Outfit 1837 under charge of Fontenelle, Fitzpatrick & Co. " 1 doz Woman's Scissors $1.75 $1.750 " 84 doz W. Scalping Knives 4/10 20 6 " 17 doz Wilson's Butcher Knives 3/10 3 5 2 " 10 doz W. Cartouche knives 3/2 1 11 8 " 6 doz W. Cartouche knives 1.375 $8.250 " 6 doz Green Bone hand'l knives 5/7 1 13
Trade List of John McKnight Partner of General Thomas James 1822 (do = ditto)
2 " Cartouche Knives 3 " Buck do 3 " brass inlaid do 1 " clasp knives 1 " do
You won't find them in the thousands like you will the scalpers and butchers, but they do make up a fair part of the trade knives. Joe did a great job making these and I hope he can make more in the future. You may still be able to buy the scales at the museum of the fur trade store, they are a little rough and will need to be smoothed out.
|
|
|
scales
Jun 8, 2011 3:04:58 GMT -5
Post by intothewest1836 on Jun 8, 2011 3:04:58 GMT -5
what about a bowie knife beaudro , why wouldnt a trapper have one?
|
|
|
scales
Jun 8, 2011 4:06:30 GMT -5
Post by beaudro on Jun 8, 2011 4:06:30 GMT -5
If the bowie knife had been called something else this might be easier to even talk about. It usually opens up a can of worms. When I first got into re-enactment the really good guys told me to leave the bowie at home. Of course there is always someone carrying around a modern bowie knife, even though there is a huge lack of research on the original bowies. I've spent the last several months researching them, I've shelled out some big bucks for at least two good books on the subject, and recently made three trips to see the temporary exhibit of bowies in the Cowboy Heritage Museum in Oklahoma City. I got to visit with a few of the guys involved with that exhibit, and Norm Flayderman showed off his entire collection. There is a cloud of myth surrounding the history of the knife, only three or four legitimate stories tell enough to get an idea of what the knife is, and each of those are a little different. Jim Bowie, and his brother Rezin Bowie were wealthy and they both had a reputation of fighting. When your wealthy and carry that reputation on your shoulder you spent good money on weapons. More is to be said about their knives than their guns, but each would spend good money on knives, they each bought several as opportunity came to them. They each had knives made for gifting family and freinds. During the famous Sandbar duel a newspaper ran with the story of how brave Jim Bowie was with a knife. He grew on that reputation and probably inspired him and his brother to own more knives. It's very typical of the more famous people in history. That first knife , according to the newspaper description was "a large butcher knife". After that, in my opinion, Jim Bowie probably wanted to live up to his reputation and started carrying a custom knife, which he did and he had several before his death. By the time of his death at the Alamo he could have had a high end custom knife. The word "bowie knife" early on was placed on several knives already in use. James Beckwourth , a trapper in the rockies, uses the word when he describes a fight he was in, however it's a few years past the fur trade. It does show however that the word "bowie knife" is used. No where else in the fur trade does the knife get mentions. It could be that it is still being called a butcher knife, hunting knife or something else perhaps. By the civil war both sides had a bowie knife of their own, England was making them in several styles, long before 1880 there was probably 90 % of the big knives being called "bowie knives". No matter what knife makers try to do, there is no escaping the brand , people are going to call it a bowie knife. The fur trappers blew their money, it meant little to them. A status symbol like the bowie knife just seems to fit them, but because there isn't anything mentioned one would think there wasn't a bowie knife in the mountains. But a large custom made butcher knife made for 20 or 30 bucks makes a lot of sense. So there is the bowie knife in the west, it's just not called the bowie knife yet, and it still looks like a big butcher knife. Presently on display at the Mississippi State Historical Museum in Jackson, Mississippi, the Schively/Perkins Bowie matches the original description of the Knife used in the Sandbar fight. Evidence strongly suggests that the Schively/Perkins Bowie was not intended as a presentation piece, but may have been Rezin Bowie's personal knife. Eventually, the knife became a gift to Jesse Perkins of Natchez, Mississippi.
|
|
|
scales
Jun 8, 2011 9:00:28 GMT -5
Post by Cody ( The Patriot ) on Jun 8, 2011 9:00:28 GMT -5
one of the stories I have heard is that after the sandbar fight he or Rezin had the butcher knife fancied up with silver and such but that is one in many you know .The folks at Old Washingtom say that Black actually made two different knives and Bowie bought them both and that one he sent with his slave from the Alamo and the Mexican Capt that left to go to Houston had the other and both are in museums one in Little Rock and the other in Calafornia some where but I havent been to either .That picture you posted looks like what has been decribed to me of what work was don to the sandbar butcher knife
|
|
|
scales
Jun 8, 2011 10:29:09 GMT -5
Post by phoenix1967 on Jun 8, 2011 10:29:09 GMT -5
Here's a link with a recnt replica of the knife that I believe was used in that fight, one like it is on display in the alamo. paleoplanet69529.yuku.com/topic/44798/Caiaphas-Ham-Bowie-knife-reproductionThe knife beaudro showed is what thnk of as the Resin bowie. Some acconts have it that the clip was added to the butcher knife AFTER the fight. Later came the cross guard, then the brass back (which was added for weight, NOT to catch another blade as many still tell it. The Musso bowie (with the brass on the back) was what some think that original bowie butcher knife evolved into. It was commissioned as a fancy replacement for the original knife, carrying all the mods Jim had added over the years.
|
|
|
scales
Jun 8, 2011 15:44:40 GMT -5
Post by intothewest1836 on Jun 8, 2011 15:44:40 GMT -5
the knife you are talking about px is the cephas ham bowie it does not fit into the description of the sandbar fight. it was given to ham by rezin in 1834 the fight was 1827. rezin says the first knife had no clip point
|
|
|
scales
Jun 9, 2011 8:53:14 GMT -5
Post by phoenix1967 on Jun 9, 2011 8:53:14 GMT -5
You are correct of course... I was speaking from memory and was incorrect... I did some refresh research.
The first one made was designed by Resin " single edged, with a width of 1 1/2 inch with a straight back, no curve"
|
|
|
scales
Jun 13, 2011 16:34:50 GMT -5
Post by james on Jun 13, 2011 16:34:50 GMT -5
Very nice , I been wanting to make one of those knives, and i was never shure how it was donw.
|
|