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Post by paskinner on Aug 12, 2009 16:03:56 GMT -5
Ok, here's what I've been playing with lately. Barktanned goat hide with grain on underneath three deer hides done grain off. Barktanned fox, two mink and a small coon. I was especially happy with how the fox turned out. Still have some other furs to do, lots of goat and deer, and I've got a grain on elk hide in solution also.
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Post by Buckskin Billy on Aug 12, 2009 18:27:34 GMT -5
what does the flesh side of the furs look like when they are barked tanned? would bark tanning furs be easier than alum tanning? i haven't even thought about that before. i have alot of hunters around here ask for hair on deer hides all the time. the ones i do, i alum tan them , rather than brain tan them cuz i think the fur has a better chance of not slipping. maybe i'm wrong, or badly confused. but i know i hate trying to soften a hair on deer hide that has been alumed. maybe a bark tanned hair on would be easier.
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Post by beaudro on Aug 12, 2009 19:06:29 GMT -5
PA, is there some reason you remove the grain on the deer hides? The two deer hides I did awhile back I left the grain on, but it has some spots where it came off. I had considered taking all the grain off but opted to leave it on. I might try one grained, yours look real nice
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Post by paskinner on Aug 12, 2009 19:55:18 GMT -5
I just had some already grained thick hides and decided to give it a try. You can get a softer hide without too much effort with the grain off, but I'll probably do mostly grain on because of the kind of stuff I want to use it for. As far as barktan vs alum, I really can't say, as I don't have experiance with alum tawing. Billy mentioned hair on deer, which are probably my least favorite thing to tan, so I try to avoid them altogether. But, my thought is that alum is a pickle, not a tan. Most modern tanning methods go something like:, pickle, tan, oil, and soften. And that's what I'm doing with these furs, the tanning part just takes longer than most. Dan Rowlett uses alum for his pickle. I've been using rittel's safety acid because I have it. But the alum and then barktan would be more of an old time combination. So far the furs soften real easy. I'm using Van Dyke's pro plus oil on most everything. The grain on goat was done with mink oil, because it was all I had at the time. Dan uses brains on some grain off stuff and some furs. For grain on, a heavier oil works better. Forgot the picture: The gray fox hide on the right was just pickled and the red fox was bark tanned.
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Post by beaudro on Aug 12, 2009 21:10:47 GMT -5
I left the grain on mine for probably the same reason, I wanted a period leather to make nicer shooting bags and to have what I call utility leather. It's best to use a thicker hide, and cowhide would be a pc option for sure. I got the idea from reading Doddridge and how the backwoods frontiersmen would go through tons of bark and work everyones deer hides into leather. It's great stuff , and for reenactment it fits so well. Barktan would be the answer to a lot of peoples problems with pc gear, it's cheaper than buying , and you get a better example of the original stuff.
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Post by Buckskin Billy on Aug 12, 2009 21:27:51 GMT -5
are you smoking the furs after they are bark tan? i'm like you pa, hair on tan is my least favorite thing to do. i have said many times this will be the last hair on deer i'll ever do, but i end up doing another. the problem i have with the hair on alum tanning i do is to get it soft. i use brains to soften just kind of " taw " the brains on the flesh side. i've added neats foot oil to the brains trying to get more oil in the hides, with the thought of making it easier to soften. helps some but not much. i hate doing hair on hides but i hate turning away money even more. every year i have several hunters wanting to tan there son's first deer hide, or to tan there first kill with a bow and so on i know there is no quick and easy thing to tanning with natural materials, but if bark tanning hair on deer hides is just a little easier, maybe it will help me get christmas taken care of this year
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Post by Buckskin Billy on Aug 12, 2009 21:34:19 GMT -5
hey pa another thought on bark tanning. are you using bark that you get from a gardening store like bark mulch. i have read that works as well. but i have never talked with no one who has actually used it
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Post by joanne2 on Aug 13, 2009 7:54:21 GMT -5
Your furskins look great PA. What are you using? Quebracho extract from Matt and pro plus tanning oil from Vandykes? I'll have to get some. You use any solvents to degrease the coon? Bet now that you've discovered bark tanning furs to be so soft you'll be tanning many more furs! Be nice to use the barktan furs along with your braintanned skins to make things to sell hey? Cool.. nice looking work there.
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Post by paskinner on Aug 13, 2009 9:02:30 GMT -5
Yep, using quebracho extract. Don't know about the mulch bark. I may try sumac again. I tried it once but didn't grind the bark and it wasn't strong enough. But the extract is so much easier to use.
I hope to do more of my own furs this year with it.
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Post by Cody ( The Patriot ) on Aug 13, 2009 9:33:01 GMT -5
The research Ive done is that even wood has tannin it but not as much so I guess you could do it but it would take more to get it strong enough .Tea even has tannin in it recon all us southern boys got tanned inereds.
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Post by joanne2 on Aug 13, 2009 11:53:06 GMT -5
According to Matt Richards website on barktanning the native americans would sometimes apply the tannins directly to the flesh side of the skins. Interesting. Sure would beat soaking them. then all one would need is a good taxidermy oil.. hmm.. makes grinding up the sumac a lot more interesting. Think I'm going to be trying some of that. Lots less expensive than even John Rineharts Tanning Cream. Gives me more reason to run out and buy a new food processor. And to think that all those willow leaves could have gave me a lot of fresh tannins..hmm.. makes one pause and think about all those little astringent things growing around us now huh? Yep.. one could keep painting on the tannins till the skins were struck through.. don't suppose that makes for a very stretchy elastic skin but at least a TANNED one.
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Post by paskinner on Aug 13, 2009 12:03:04 GMT -5
Even with a concentrated extract, it can take weeks for the hide to get struck through. I think painting it on would basically result in dyed and surface tanned buckskin.
Although tannins are everywhere, few of them are concentrated enough for bark tanning unless used in huge amounts.
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Post by joanne2 on Aug 13, 2009 14:04:25 GMT -5
Well this is word for word from Matt Richards intro on barktanning. "In general it is considered a bad idea to bark tan furs as the tannins can stain the fur, but these northern peoples did (and still do) tan this way, generally by just applying the tannin to the flesh side and doing it on relatively thin hides."
I wonder how you barktanned your furs PA? Come on, don't be a tease.. LOL. It has been my experience to note that Fox are real thin.. matter of fact I have another summer fox skin a guy just brought over. I'll powerwash it and use some sumac JUICE.. Hmm.. I'm thinkin' "juice extractor" I just don't happen to have one. I doubt very much that bark or veg tanning indians would collect bushels full of sumac leaves.. Don't YOU?
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Post by paskinner on Aug 13, 2009 16:06:41 GMT -5
Well this is word for word from Matt Richards intro on barktanning. "In general it is considered a bad idea to bark tan furs as the tannins can stain the fur, but these northern peoples did (and still do) tan this way, generally by just applying the tannin to the flesh side and doing it on relatively thin hides." I wonder how you barktanned your furs PA? Come on, don't be a tease.. LOL. It has been my experience to note that Fox are real thin.. matter of fact I have another summer fox skin a guy just brought over. I'll powerwash it and use some sumac JUICE.. Hmm.. I'm thinkin' "juice extractor" I just don't happen to have one. I doubt very much that bark or veg tanning indians would collect bushels full of sumac leaves.. Don't YOU? I've only done these furs and a few hair off hides, so keep that in mind. So far, I'd have to say that Matt is incorrect about the bark staining the fur ,at least the quebracho. Anyway, not being a tease, it's all there in my posts. Pickle first, then add the barktan solution, leave the hides in until they are done enough to suit you (even the fox took a couple weeks) Take them out, rinse well in plain water, dry until damp. (I run them through a wringer to speed things up) Oil well and soften as they dry. The only thing I didn't say is that you need to at least break up the membrane at some point so the tannin can penetrate better. If you have patches of unbroken membrane you'll know when you peel if off and find it's not tanned underneath. Not trying to discourage anyone from using natural materials, just warning that if it's not concentrated enough you'll know it when the hide starts to rot in the solution.
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Post by Buckskin Billy on Aug 13, 2009 18:56:40 GMT -5
hey presmoker. i don't do that when i'm braintanning. on brain tanning i'll either use straight brains or straight eggs if no brains are available. on the few hair on hides that i have alum tan, after i take the hide from the alum and allow it to dry some, i mix up some brains and soak a wash rag in it and use the rag to " brush " the brains on the flesh side. having had trouble with getting a hair on alum tanned hide to soften i have added neats foot oil to the mix thinking that would help. nothing helps that i have tried. it just takes alot of elbow greese, to get one half assed soften
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