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Post by beaudro on Apr 1, 2008 20:17:56 GMT -5
I've been sending Billy and anyone else interested a little information passed on to me from the AMM guys. Not trying to keep it between us, so I thought it was best to post on here the information that I learn from. This information is gathered from researchers in the american mountain man association by going thru all the ledgers and trade list and finally by examining paintings and after years of working and making them here's what they have to say... The basic shirt did not change much up until the civil war, most men even in the rockies wore a vest or westkit and the shirt stayed covered at all times. The sleeves are full and lengthy, and the shoulders drop plenty. Made from a rectangular pattern, no seam on the shoulder, and small collars and cuffs. The early shirts would have been linen, but cotton was taking a big hold by 1820's and by 1830 was very common on the trade lists. Cotton Calico's were available in a huge variety. Narrowing it down to what the trade companies were shipping would be useful to buckskinners. In 1813 William Dark ordered calicos with small black dots on red background and red pinstripes on white background. Flowers and vines were popular, Some larger figures such as birds bugles, ovals moon and stars were ordered also. White , red, dark blue was the most common color of background on calicos. Calico was almost always starched and glossy looking , yes starch was used. While several colors could be printed onto cloth, the companies generally got one or two color prints in order to keep cost down. White or un-bleached cotton muslin is always common and good for re-enactors, white linen is always a safe bet also. In order to promote a little better looking scene on the rendezvous circuits people should stay clear of polyester and stick with cotton, linen or period fabrics. Cotton and linen take on a very nice patina after they have been worn a few times, with a little effort of looking around and shopping the price is better than modern fabrics as well.
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Post by Buckskin Billy on Apr 1, 2008 20:37:38 GMT -5
that brings a thought to my mind. i read so much and don't keep track of what i'm reading. sometimes i'm researching two or three things at once and trying to keep up with my daily routine its easy for all of this junk to get jumbled around in my head. sometimes it just surface in pieces and have no clue where i got it from or how reliable the source was when i got it. this is one of those times. i think i read, heard or something some where that material such as calico was printed on both sides. wonder if there is any truth to that or is it a bunch of horse dookie.i've noticed that printed calicoes of today are printed on the outside but white on the inside. i think i read that on a amm site but can't be for sure. what do you think. i bet it would be hard to find today
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Post by beaudro on Apr 1, 2008 21:18:34 GMT -5
I had to look back and find out about that Billy. As far as I can tell on Calico it was printed on either both sides or one side. So we should be safe with just one side, I have seen many seminole re-enactors wear a one side print fabric. Just to mention why seminole indian, not all seminole were in Florida as commonly thought, they were right alongside Creek, Cherokee, Choctaw, and Chickasaw out of the southern states, Georgia and Alabama etc.. They had a little to do with the fur trade, and they recieved many of the goods that the western tribes recieved. One thing the Seminole was big on was the calico shirt. In a painting of Billy Bowlegs, you can see his shirt sleeve rolled up and can tell it's printed on one side. From what I read , the fabric before it was printed was white, the background may be printed on both sides or one side, then the pattern was block printed the same way. It's hard to tell it's a white shirt when the background color is printed instead of dyed, it looks to me as if the printing went almost through the fabric into the other side, that is why it's not a plain white on the one side. none the less, were safe enough to use even the walmart prints. The real problem is the pattern, thats why periodfabrics.com is handy. But as they say calico had such a variety it would be hard to rule out anything. I had seen several of the period fabrics and some look like little kids pajama patterns. It would be a riot to actually wear those, but they apparently are correct as they mention moon and stars, birds etc. As alot of times if you ever notice modern clothing and fashion it will reflect on the past. I see purses that resemble shooting pouches (good one huh), womens shoes that resemble the old colony style, and always you find house slippers made like mocs. I noticed the patterns on curtains at lowes/home depot , they still resemble the old american patterns, mainly floral. Calico, which we know came from a village in India named Calicut, it's actually the same as Muslin , but derived the famous name from it's patterns in the americas. It doesn't necessarily mean a print, but a weave of fabric which is muslin, when it was printed on and sent here we called it calico because of the patterns. I bet you know the famous Paisley pattern, it was printed , but came from persia , it's big on the western clothing. Early americans called it persian pickles, then later it was called paisley having more to do with scotland. I can't find anything about it within the amm trade list, but it's very old and could have been around during our times. It's common enough to find in local stores, if it's the proper design .
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Post by Buckskin Billy on Apr 1, 2008 22:19:17 GMT -5
thanks for the info. boy you have done your home work. i read a article about calico some time ago. it touched on some of the stuff you did. thanks for going in depth. minor little details make all the difference. i'm gonna check out period fabrics haven't heard of them. i know you been to this web site beaudro, but there may be someone out there looking their is reproductionfabric.com.
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Post by longtrail on Apr 1, 2008 22:44:44 GMT -5
If you are familiar with FolkWear patterns....they have a pattern commonly used for clothing at Amm doings It is called the Missouri River Boatman's shirt. Also the MOuntain Man Sketch Books out of the Museum of the Fur Trade in Chadron Nebraska shows a couple of different styles of shirts, their basic construction. When I use to sew a lot for Amm doings, I could hand sew a Missouri River Boatman shirt in about a day and a half if thats all I had to do. I still have the first dropsleeve shirt I ever hand sewed and it is still doing great. Doesn't fit quite as well, hummm.
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Post by beaudro on Apr 2, 2008 0:59:33 GMT -5
I"ve never used a pattern to make one, however i'm not against it at all, if you see one of mine you might suggest a pattern too. When fabric width was measured in Ells , a former british measure of length of 45 inches it was easier to do, as some of the material I have bought is 45 inches wide. I think the linen fabric at hobby lobby is 45. The original shirts in museums are really nice, they will have all the gussets and really nice stitching on them. Our forefathers sewed for living and they knew more about it than what we do today. Some have been known to pull a single thread out of a weave of fabric and replace that with a stitch. They could do this by candlelight and even when they were deathly ill. Some museum examples show a lesser quality also , it's beleived that simple camp keepers or natives constructed the clothing for trappers. It's rare that a piece shows up at a museum at all as most clothing had not survived. Some of the finer examples may be in museums because they were very special articles of clothing and rarely used.
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Post by beaudro on Apr 2, 2008 11:23:57 GMT -5
Since i've rebuilt my computer I can now get my scanner to work, here's what I use to construct my shirts, it's a simple French militia pattern, although it's of an older time than the fur trade, it's strongly beleived that this method was carried over from the french trappers. 75% of the fur trappers were french origin.
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Post by longtrail on Apr 2, 2008 13:34:17 GMT -5
www.folkwear.com/Both shirts... the Missouri River Boatman's Shirt circa 182o's as well at the Poets Shirt circa about the same time are both shown under ROMANTIC. If you have acces to the Sketchbook Series from Museum of the Fur Trade there are some patterns and sketches of time period mountain man clothing.
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Post by paweaver on Apr 2, 2008 21:15:17 GMT -5
This may sound knit-picky, but it is really an honest question. Are there any references to the weight of the fabrics? Linen and cotton come in all weights of heaviness. I've always wondered about this. As a dress or shirt made from a different weight of fabric can have an entirely different "look". I must of spent too much time in my Mom's fabric shop. ;D
I know that this will sound strange, but we dress in braintan because it is what we can afford. Almost all of our clothes are made out of some scored or holey hide. Most with no real pattern just how the hides go together best. Lynora even help tan a hide with a big scar in it for her new dress. When I ask her how we should arrange the hide, she wanted that huge scar right up in front. We told her now you need to come up with a "big" story as to how she was wounded or something.
I've looked and looked at linen for shirts, but have not found something that I just can't walk alway from yet. I am leaning towards the fabrics that you would find in a really nice quilting store. They are heavier than what you would find at wal-marts. Guess I'm just not comfortable enough with my own knowledge to buy yet.
Sometime people get upset with us because no one would have still been dressing in all leather... We really don't do many big events. Just some small local shows and maybe one walk in a year at a bigger show. We hardly ever have enough braintan done ahead to take to a show. This is a good problem for us now, but I keep thinking that maybe when the boys are bigger we will want to do a show? So I am always trying to gather info.
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Post by longtrail on Apr 2, 2008 23:46:34 GMT -5
I can recommend a heavy muslin. It can be from nearly sheer ~ dont think you'd want that~ to a very heavy coarse texture. I have seen it for sale a walmart ~ even in the coarse. It is a natural color of off white and the coarse even has~ gee~ how do I describe it~ nubby things like it was home woven or something. Just make sure you wash it before cutting a pattern or making anything because it will shrink. If anyone gets mad cause you all dress in all leather~ its because they can't afford brain tan or can't make it themselves!
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Post by beaudro on Apr 7, 2008 9:30:16 GMT -5
Pa, you can narrow that question down to a specific time frame and get a better answer. In the revolutionary time, cotton was basically had by the wealthy, linen and hemp and some silk were common and the weight of fabric was very broad. Each homespun fabric piece was probably different from another, some coarse and some finer. When some people think of Hemp they assume it was very coarse and heavy, that isn't so, it was very light weight in some areas. As America was still a young country we had not developed much to be supplying our own country with enough cloth, the homespun wasn't able to supply enough, so we relied on trade. The fabric we received could be ordered through many places in many weights. In the fur trade period, cotton is booming out , linen and hemp were not exactly declining, but many countries could supply so much more in cotton. It's mentioned in the trade lists as "fine cotton shirting" , material made just for shirts it's a lightweight fabric very similiar to a dress shirt we would wear today. Some lists mention cotton ducking, twill, tweed, and so on for other purposes such as pantaloons and breeches. And not to leave out the different weights of wool , melton, saved list, flannel and so on. www.periodfabrics.com may have the best of fabrics for recreating the ideal weight of a cloth. Osnaburg is a common fabric today to buy for rendezvous shirts, you could buy it at walmart on sale for $1.00 a yard, originally osnaburg was a linen, in several different weights, the same weavery made hemp sales, the town this fabric was named after developed several different looms for making a broad number of fabrics for every use possible. It's a cotton fabric today, so not good for the earlier times to be portrayed. I have asked your same question before, in a effort to recreate a shirt with fabric that looked like our mountain man. Most likely it was NOT homespun, most of his shirting was made from trade cloth in cotton. Having discovered that it was best for me to look at what the trade cloth was like. At this point, i'm finding out it was a very good cloth, it can be light or heavy, 8 to 10 ounce fabric. Even back then it was ironed and pressed using starch and fabric was sent with sizing. Sizing was made from hide glue. The devil is in the details, I've learned that most people are concerned with the color, print, or style of wear. If I choose an appropriate color , cut it out authentically, and hand sew it I will have plenty to show off at any event. I've heard it said that the earth tone colors of Linen that Hobby Lobby sells is very good stuff, it has a similiar weave to it as our originals. It's rather expensive, but it sounds like it's a good way to go.
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Post by beaudro on Apr 7, 2008 9:43:12 GMT -5
upset because your wearing all leather? I've been there, I think thats an area thing, and/lack of studying. It could depend on your era of time also. As for the fur trappers, many wore different things at different times. A leathern shirt was probably had by all at some point, other times linen and cotton was the norm. There is no one single attire of one single fur trapper at all times of his career. All parties of men exchanged goods for whatever clothing was available to them, and it changed as more and more goods were brought west, from all directions. People should observe paintings. In A.J. Millers' painting of a camp scene you will see many people dressed differently. I feel for you on this subject, if you ever want to attend an event down here, feel free to wear all buckskin if you want.
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Post by paweaver on Apr 8, 2008 21:43:06 GMT -5
[/quote] Pa, you can narrow that question down to a specific time frame and get a better answer. [/quote] Yes, you have probably nailed my problem. I want one outfit that can do almost all time frames. Because we are in the east most of the places around us do 1700's French and Indian stuff. But we do other shows sometimes too. And the truth is we love the mountain man ERA. Loren has ran a trap line since he was quite young. And I have trapping heritage on both sides of my family. My Mom's Dad put the whole second floor of their house on with trapping money. From what I have read the fashions changed at a much slower rate the farther down the money ladder you go. So I wanted to mix linen in with our leather to give us more of a mix and match wardrobe that would fit in anywhere. I've done a lot of reading about fibers. I've owned hardly any linen, but the more I read the more I am fascinated with it. Linen is on all accounts suppose to be more comfortable than cotton, and only grow softer as it is washed. Yet people quit wearing it because it became a symbol of being poor. I've read in many fiber and knitting books were linen hose were much more comfortable than the cotton hose. And poor women made their own from their flax fields. Peer pressure, the desire to have what the Jones had, or something made them give it up for cotton hose which from all the accounts that I have read mention how uncomfortable cotton hose were. The way we dress now is the girls in their braintan dresses and if it is cold we give them a cotton shirt for under them( to hide long john shirts) and a small wool remnant to wear as a blanket around them. The boys have braintan pants and cotton shirts that are huge, handed down to them by a cousin. I give them blankets too if it get cold. I have an elk hide wrapped around me for a skirt and I need to come up with either a leather or linen shirt. The cotton one that I had is two short to be correct. Loren has braintan pants and shirts and a cotton shirt that just can't get any more time period correct, because it was sewed by hand by both of us on the trip to our first show and by candle light in the tent the night before the show started. I'm just getting more picky. I want us to be correct not just thrown together at the last minute which is how we started. However, when I've asked around at shows for how to dress correctly the standard answer is no one would be all dressed in leather any more. And they also seem to get all bent out of shape about the color of my one cotton skirt. It is a beautiful shade of red. I know that the color is OK because of my friends who do natural dyeing. Yet they tell me NO ONE of my class could of afforded a skirt in that color. ?? I can't help wonder how many women today have rings that their men just couldn't afford either. Maybe I'm wrong but it seems to me that men have bought special things for their ladies all through time. Why not a red skirt bought on a good year of trading? I end up frustrated because of too many opinions and not enough documentation. Sorry I will close my book now. ;D
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Post by Buckskin Billy on Apr 8, 2008 22:25:22 GMT -5
very good points pa weaver
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Post by beaudro on Apr 9, 2008 0:19:13 GMT -5
Howdy Paweaver, I know a few people around your neck of the woods and the F/I war is a big thing there. Thats some hard-core thread counters your up against. That time period is pretty far back compared to the rocky mountain fur trade, it would be best to keep linen if you decide to go with fabric. Wool and linen, and you'll love the wool in winter as well. That shirt pattern that I posted is of that french time period , it was meant for linen as well. White may have been the most common color, but double check me on that. The thing is about re-enactment is that we should have a personae first, it's recommended that we NOT even buy a gun and then build a person to fit that gun, or other peice of equipment. I"m not sure how to fit all buckskin into French and Indian war, but I think it's worth the effort to find a way, most likely a native role?? thats a guess, there is much research to do. For the rocky mountain fur trade, there is no reason at all why Loren can't portray a trapper, and you are a native wife with kids all dressed in buckskin. I don't know of a way to take the clothing of the second scenario and use that in the french and indian war,, but i don't know much about that either, with the right research it's possible. to sum it up,, why not go back and start a clean slate, figure a personae based on the skills you have and want to utilize? Then worry about what events you can attend. Here's something else,, The use of spring traps was not common until almost 1800. So the way Loren traps now may not have been around in the earlier times. It's all things to consider and research is a must. When I first started with this hobby I was told several times, research your personae,, over and over. I didn't do it exactly soon enough. So now I have a pile of junk that doesn't fit. Thats not all bad, I like junk. But the big problem is, I lost all that time and now i'm still playing catch up. hope this helps,
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