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Post by paskinner on Jul 3, 2009 19:28:28 GMT -5
Honest, folks, I did not pay him to say that about my hide. ;D
My pants were actually made out of parts of, I think ,3 hides that weren't that soft, at least by my current standard of what I think of as soft. I just replaced one piece on the lower part of the leg because it was stiff and uncomfortable. But, these were fallow deer hides which are tight fibered and really thick in the rump to start with and I was pre- smoking hides at the time which for me has always meant tighter hides, so they ended up with a couple of hard spots after washing them. They stayed comfortable except for that one lower leg piece, though, but I don't abuse them too much.
Elk hide just has a looser "weave" than deer, so it makes sense that it would stretch more. People assume it will wear better because it's thicker, but I try to tell them that isn't really so. Thin elk can be incredably soft, softer than deer, so it's a really nice shirt material, but probably a poor choice for pants.
What Liza was referring to was the opposite of what you said here: "Many times before I lay out my pattern I will wet the buckskin down and let it draw up in those necessary places, then prepare to cut it out." We had a tailor tell us that they used to wet and stretch it for all it was worth before making breeches, to take most of the stretch out. I know Matt and some other tanners said they would always wet and lay them out, which sounds like what you are doing. This could vary a little with what softening method one is using, too. I would definately want to at least stretch hand softened hides on a frame for a while before laying a pattern on them. My hides have some stretch when finished, but aren't super stretchy like totally hand softened hides.
Not sure how helpful this post will be. I make no claims about being a tailor, just a lowly hide tanner. Our new website is up, just click the link below. If anyone here has anything made from our braintan they would like displayed in the customer gallery, give me a holler.
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Post by Buckskin Billy on Jul 3, 2009 22:33:57 GMT -5
good looking web site yall got skinner
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Post by beaudro on Jul 4, 2009 2:04:47 GMT -5
Paweaver, I apologize, I had to read back what you said. This is getting to be a lengthy conversation, but a good one. I might consider stretching out a hide before I cut into it next time. I'm going to run this by Jay Howlett and see what he thinks about it, if anyone is a period tailor he sure is. I'm with you on the elk Pa, it's not the greatest around. I might prefer a coat made of it, thats about the only thing I got that isn't abused so much either. Just for good conversation, many of us "historians", if thats an appropriate name, believe that big horn ship and antelope was more commonly used than deer or elk. However I can only say that for Natives along the Upper Missouri and Rockies. The dress of the mountain man isn't described as much as the Natives. I know you and a few of us on this forum have worked with antelope, it's thinner we all know, easy to tan in my opinion. I'm hoping to finish the few I have left and make a coat with them someday. I also have 2 big horn sheep , fur on , but only the back half. A taxidermist got the rest. Because of the way it's tanned, lew tan I think, i can't really tell if it's thin, or thick. I have no idea of how it wears either. Has nothing to do with our conversation going, but I drifted off topic anyway.
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Post by Buckskin Billy on Jul 4, 2009 9:18:44 GMT -5
thats the good thing about a post like that some times they drift off subject a little and starts a new one. so i'm drifting this one further away, but i got to ask and this seems like as good of a place as any. is big horn sheep as stretchy as deer skin?
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Post by paweaver on Jul 4, 2009 10:48:20 GMT -5
Hey everyone, I was not really trying to show off family pics. lol But thanks anyway! I was trying to show with pics how leather can be reused. Just like beauro's pants becoming a gun case.
Kitchen scissors are the best. Their blades are made to take abuse. Ginger makes many different quality levels of scissors, and cutting paper is a Big no no with them. That is one of the worst things you can do with a good pair of fabric scissors.
To the original poster, Sorry I lead your post astray.
Our website is still not done, but I am thrilled with how it is taking shape.
Disclaimer! lol Look, I know our leather and know how it responded to water and stretching. I have not washed or handled other peoples braintan. Sometimes I get to feel a small scrap of someone else's braintan, but that is not the same as sewing, washing, wearing, and seeing and helping with making it. Please before you do what I suggested (wetting and stretching out the braintan before cutting your pants pattern) try it on a small sample piece. I do not need someone mad at me because I ruined their costly (either time or money) braintan. When working with yarn and weaving you knit or weave a small sample, wash it, and then carry it around in your pocket with your change and keys for several days to see what it will be like in the long run. Please try this with your braintan sample. If you have any hard spots at all STOP. Don't make your pants that way. I sure that there are many other braintanners whose leather will hold up to this test, but please test before wetting, stretching, and cutting. That way you will not be sorry.
beauro, I have a question. When you rework your pants, do you ever open the waist band to see how the cotton inside is holding up? If I were to make a pair of pants that I abused that much with a actual waist band I would use either heavy linen or a piece of a hemp strap (you can buy it from Turkey Foot Traders) inside the waist instead of cotton. The reason is both hemp and linen are time period correct and both hold up to water abuse much better than cotton. I've tried to use hemp and cotton yarn. I was so unimpressed that I didn't finish the project with it. I restarted with a hemp and wool yarn. I didn't even give it to my children to use. I walk straight to the trash can. I have not been able to find a good cotton and hemp blend. Have you? They might of made it better years ago? Cotton is made up of short fibers which causes it to be weaker than hemp or wool or linen which are all made with longer fibers thus more strength.
Wetting the hide and letting it "shrink" up before you cut, seems to me is the best way to put as much stretch possible into your project. Wetting and stretching the hide out before you cut, seems to me is the best way to get as much stretch as possible out of your project. But please tell me what other people share with you about this. Because I'm still be learning.
Just my "free" cents worth of opinions,
paweaver
P.S. From my research big horn sheep hides were highly prized.
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Post by beaudro on Jul 4, 2009 14:40:45 GMT -5
I use a hemp/cotton blend for the waistband on one pair , another pair is a heavy weight linen. It's also washed before I use it. I stopped using cotton a few years ago and now everything of mine is either linen or hemp. Mainly because I do an 18th century time period outside of a fur trapper. The knee breeches I wear for the older time period don't give me as much trouble , but they are not worn as much. I don't think I have worn them riding yet. I probably havn't gotten them wet but one time.
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Post by beaudro on Jul 4, 2009 16:00:58 GMT -5
This was thrown around the campfire one night, with so many journals and documents mentioning big horn sheep and antelope skins being used. The numbers could be found and compared to deer and elk. Just a quick search on xmission says a lot. Rufus Sage mentions it in his description of a trapper enchaired upon the head of a mountain sheep, (whose huge horns furnish legs and arms for the convenience of sitting) Catlin, Jed Smith, Osborne Russell, Ogdene, Bonneville, and the list goes on and on. They all mention big horn sheep and antelope more often than deer skin, when each one describes a native and what they are wearing. They leave out more details on a trapper, but their intent was to describe the native in the journal. The conclusion that night by the fire was that more antelope and sheep was used than deer skins, natives may not have had as many deer, because today there is probably more deer around. Thats not hard to beleive because we created a deer hunting industry thats worth millions in revenues across almost every state. So many breeding programs, and we feed and support deer herds even on the smallest tracts of land. So back in the day, there may have been less deer around and this supports the reasons they used more sheep and antelope. It's even plausible that natives preferred sheep and antelope. This is only to a small location, and a small period in time also. It doesn't mean all natives did this. Only the natives that had access to sheep and antelope, plus only the natives that our trappers ran into, and only during that time. So many museums host exhibits of native dresses, shirts and other articles. Most of these are later in time, many 1880 and later. Those articles of clothing that I have seen are made of a real thick leather, some are grain hides even. Gilcrease museum here in Tulsa has two and are described as elk, they look commercially tanned to me. Oddly enough they are dated 1920, but this is Oklahoma, and it's Indian heritage is reflecting the removal. These later period artifacts however are out of the reservation period , and that puts native arts in a whole different perspective. Also in the last 5 years I've noticed many displays at museums are labeled as replicas. This is a trend thats happening, museums need to grow and have more displays, but it doesn't give us good clues to history. I noticed in philbrook two weeks ago a headress put together with hot glue. The better Museums like the Smithsonian, Peabody or the likes surely has older artifacts and worth looking at.
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