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elk
Feb 24, 2008 11:24:58 GMT -5
Post by joanne on Feb 24, 2008 11:24:58 GMT -5
well here's one for ya.. this skin was hair on all winter long and come spring i soaked it too long in water and powerwashed the grain and hair almost totally off of it in no time.. cool, huh? real purty lookin too, I know.. You notice how the close up in your face type pics'll really turn you on? Well i'm no kind of a bs'er either and i've worked daing hard at this tanning stuff too.. so from here on out i'm all about learning ways that WORK to make all of this tanning stuff EASIER!.. so anyway these skin pics sure are easy on the eyes. I like the close up ones.. thank God for digital cameras and computers, hmmn? JMO
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elk
Feb 25, 2008 11:04:50 GMT -5
Post by longtrail on Feb 25, 2008 11:04:50 GMT -5
Thanks for being interested. And we will be working on it. My camera manual suggests not using the camera when it is too cold. so we are waiting for a break in the weather. Just a tease, we have a youngun cowboy rancher kid (20's) who we taught how to tan using our method. He only started about 2 months ago, learning and getting the steps down. He made over a grand in three weeks recently. His hides don't come out as lofty as ours but are plenty soft and obviously sellable. I am really torn between just spilling my guts and telling you the little things that make such an incredible difference. But at the same time want to be able to cash in a bit like all the rest of the people who make dvd and sell book. I realize that once the info is out, all anyone has to do is post it on any site and it is free info for anyone who wants to read it. Joe and I have been discussing this dilema we have. I don't want anyone to try our method, without the little hints, and have it not work for them and then say "Dinsmore's Pre-smoke method sucks". Because it doesn't. We are not so up on all the promotion aspect and sales, I'd have to start at ground zero, there isn't anything to stop those with those connections to just use our method for their own profit, but I guess thats life. eh? I am sure "he who walks on lye~water" is not real happy with me at this point anyway. I find dishonesty repulsive. What are your thoughts on my dilema? Anyone?
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elk
Feb 25, 2008 11:06:40 GMT -5
Post by longtrail on Feb 25, 2008 11:06:40 GMT -5
Jeez Paulette, YOu hide looks beautiful. We dont have anything over on you! Need to get a pressure washer, Joe's elbows and shoulders are about worn out and hurting from too many years of fleshing and dehairing. Your results are great!
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elk
Feb 25, 2008 11:44:18 GMT -5
Post by Cody ( The Patriot ) on Feb 25, 2008 11:44:18 GMT -5
Yup dehairing is the hardest part on me too.
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elk
Feb 25, 2008 22:32:15 GMT -5
Post by longtrail on Feb 25, 2008 22:32:15 GMT -5
I guess I lost count. Or a big damn case of denial. haha
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elk
Feb 27, 2008 10:09:13 GMT -5
Post by paskinner on Feb 27, 2008 10:09:13 GMT -5
Well, only using water and brains, we easily(yes, easily) tan cow elk. We soak the hide for a day or so in plain water, when the brownish epidermis has soaked in enough water to soften and sort of swell it up, we then scrape off the epidermis taking the hair off with it. Hide is yellowish at this point. We then pre-brain the hide in a warm brain solution,overnight, hide is whiteish, infact it begins to turn white as soon as you swish it around in the warm solution. hang it sideways from one edge on a clothes line, let it dry, yellowish when dry. Soak in plain cold water until is is sort of soft and rubbery, usually overnight, lace on frame, prestretch real well, until dry, smoke, immediately after it comes from smoker, brain in warm solution, soak overnight, Work on band the next day, wring, put on frame and soften. Our hides all come out like velvet, right up to the neck. All portions being extremely beadable, even the neck, the needle slides right through. The main step is the prestretching, it has to be done good enough so that the hide is white when it dries. You need to whiten out the edges too and work the hair side more because it is more dense. I guess you guys will just have to figure out for yourselves that you don't need all the PH~ucking PH, vinegar, lye etc. Have fun. Thats how we skin our cats. Question, what is the reason for drying the brains in and then soaking in water? Is it just to avoid wringing the hide, or? Lol, you do realize that when you presmoke a hide or put smoke in the water you are dropping the ph, the same thing the vinegar does? Your sample looks good longtrail. Look forward to the dvd. I'm pre -stretching an elk today. I just wring after rinsing, brain, wring pre-stretch, brain, wring and soften.
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elk
Feb 27, 2008 11:13:35 GMT -5
Post by hannes on Feb 27, 2008 11:13:35 GMT -5
joanne, or anybody. you are all so bloody friendly, let us see how helpfull the rest of you guys can bee.? untill now, and for the past 4 years i have been buying salted dry hides. i would then just put it in my dam for a day, put it in red devil, take off the hair and then alum tan.THEN i was bitten by the braintan bug, did the same ,put in buck, whetscrape, etc. i till now presumed that the salt,1st and then off coarse the drying as well and the bucking for sure sorted any possible bacteria problem out or minimized it or nulified it. my question now is: with four freswh skins i got today, i used the powerwasher, thanks to paulette, and for the 1st time i saw how the turbohead cleans a fresh skin! back to my question.if one now starts scaping hair , grain epidermis ,, dunk in brains ,which i think can soon go a bit sour, what acts as your bacteria killer. on another forum i was reprimanded for asking stupid questions. trust that it wont happen here. i am exited , got an order for a double harness for two welsh ponies, so i better start on the alum tanning soon. once more : NICE GETTING TO NOW YOU ALL. you guys are going to love my alum tann softening machine. someone is coming this weekend to try and help with the posting of photos again. THIS IS THE END
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elk
Feb 27, 2008 12:20:59 GMT -5
Post by Buckskin Billy on Feb 27, 2008 12:20:59 GMT -5
you won't be reprimaned here for asking questions.if you don't know something ask.thats how we learn. i'm sure somebody know how to get you a answer. i'll let someone who has more experience than me answer your question ,simply cuz i don't know and would like to know myself
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elk
Feb 27, 2008 13:00:23 GMT -5
Post by joanne on Feb 27, 2008 13:00:23 GMT -5
I don't kill the bacteria. Why? I just avoid getting too many skins going at one time. You can freeze and or dry the skins.. you can salt them and you can refrigerate them you can also add vinegar to your brain mix which will sour them and help prevent those from getting away from you as well.. that and/or adding a smoking hem to the brain mix. Yep.. you just gotta anticipate your next step.. That tip of Melvins about putting plastic between the layers of skin is a good'n now.. just small things that really add up to a LOT when tanning skins.. you just learn to tweak here and there and this is what the Dinsmores have done and what most likely the NA's may have very well done as well.. they just didn't record it and it's become a dying art. Lots of Plains Indian Tribes did not use alkali's to tan their skins.. but I'll bet they used WATER.. not all of them SMOKED their skins in sacks either.. but they did hover around the fires in their absorbant skins and probably safely put their ceremonial unsmoked skins in a safe from the fires place. There are just so many variables to braintanning but a lot of the basics are things that can sure go awry if you're not one step ahead so you need to anticipate what you're doing with your skins or what is happening if you're NOT doing anything with them. No matter how long you've been tanning sometimes you slip up and shit just happens Hannes so nothing really too stupid. I think a person can tan all their lives in a way that could have been made a bit easier if they'd only been more aware and also tried other tanning techniques. To me bucking is just another way to have things that can go wrong. Deerskins especially braintanned buckskin can be very forgiving but there's a few ways that you can sure get goofed up when you are bucking.. freezing, not rinsing them well enough.. are just two.. there are several and I've done them all and well I find I can goof up less and have great skins that aren't so hard to tan at all by NOT doing it.. so this is what I prefer to go by.. PAST experience. MY experience with buckin' hides hasn't been worth the bother for the most part.. seems to me anyway!!
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elk
Mar 4, 2008 20:21:39 GMT -5
Post by paskinner on Mar 4, 2008 20:21:39 GMT -5
An elk I finished softening today. It's 24 square feet by my measuring. These ranch hides are a bit different-the necks are very thin and easy but the rumps are pretty thick and take a long time to dry. I don't even consider doing elk without bucking, been there, done that, and don't want to work that hard again. ;D
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elk
Mar 4, 2008 21:01:37 GMT -5
Post by beaudro on Mar 4, 2008 21:01:37 GMT -5
that is beautiful, when are you smoking it?
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elk
Mar 4, 2008 23:41:00 GMT -5
Post by longtrail on Mar 4, 2008 23:41:00 GMT -5
Paskinner, I discussed this with Joe and we both agree that , considering the amount of hides we do and the production line we begin anew every eight days or so, and have been doing for a very long time, the hide that has been fleshed, dehaired, brained, hung to dry, soaked in cold water, takes less time and effort to pre-stretch than a hide that is prestretched right out of the brain solution. The hide just isn't as wet. Sounds strange to say so, but it seems the case. Since prestretching is the most important part in our method, we have experimented over the 20+ years we have been tanning and found the way we do it, makes the prestretching most effecient. On a warm day we can have a hide prestretched in about 30 minutes, even a thick one. Maybe not an elk, but a mule deer. Once we decided we were going to eliminate the step of drying it and just go from the brain solution to the frame, it took so much longer to dry and did not prestretch as thoroughly and as a result did not soften with the loft we normall acheive in our finished hides. I am hoping that some of you guys will try the way we do hides, and the way we prestretch them, and realize you can get just as nice a hide if not better, without the bucking and chemicals. As far as smoke in the water acting just like vineger and dropping the PH................... if the smoke does the same thing as vinegar, and the smoke does the trick, why use the vinegar, why not just use the smoke? Is that just too simple? Are you saying it is easier to dump a bottle of vinegar in a kiddy pool and let it soak for five or so days, stirring occasionally, than smoking the hide for a couple of hours and going from there? I suppose if your doing hides in your leisure time it might be sufficient. But for us, we want to do them the quickest and easiest way possible. And after 20+ years we have found it. People are use to doing things like they do, I am not going to start bucking because you say it is the best way, and you have stated that you won't do an elk without bucking. Matt R. , is having problems with his hides coming out consistantly good, if he is a brain tanner as he claims to be, then why does he have to consult a chemical tanning company to get advise on how to do his hides? I have offered to help him learn how to brain tan, but he isn't interested. You can't push a method for years, make bookoo bucks from it, and then admitt it doesn't work very well. I guess if I added a cup of brains to my paint I could say I brainpainted my house. haha. Sort of the same thing isn't it?
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elk
Mar 5, 2008 10:22:26 GMT -5
Post by paskinner on Mar 5, 2008 10:22:26 GMT -5
Paskinner, I discussed this with Joe and we both agree that , considering the amount of hides we do and the production line we begin anew every eight days or so, and have been doing for a very long time, the hide that has been fleshed, dehaired, brained, hung to dry, soaked in cold water, takes less time and effort to pre-stretch than a hide that is prestretched right out of the brain solution. The hide just isn't as wet. Sounds strange to say so, but it seems the case. Thanks for the explanation. Actually, I just tried this on a old bull elk back half that I brained and worked some about two years ago, then left alone in a semi rawhide state. I just soaked in plain water and framed it. Seemed to pre stretch pretty well, but this thing is super thick. I'm going to give your prestetching a try on some deer. I've done it your way in the past but it's been awhile. Anything that cuts out a wringing is good, especially on big buck hides. As far as smoke in the water acting just like vineger and dropping the PH................... if the smoke does the same thing as vinegar, and the smoke does the trick, why use the vinegar, why not just use the smoke? Is that just too simple? Are you saying it is easier to dump a bottle of vinegar in a kiddy pool and let it soak for five or so days, stirring occasionally, than smoking the hide for a couple of hours and going from there? I suppose if your doing hides in your leisure time it might be sufficient. I rinse my hides overnight, wring, brain and get on with it. No soaking for days. And it's not a bottle of vinegar, it's a cup or less to two deer hides. On elk, I do leave them in the ammonium sulphate an extra day, but no big deal, I'm usually not in a hurry to work elk, anyway, lol. I'm not saying that the vinegar does everything the smoke does. It just lowers the ph, it does not tan the hide. But I do believe one of the benefits of pre smoking is lowering the ph. My point is that you are getting one of the benefits the people get who acidfy, you're just not realizing it. But for us, we want to do them the quickest and easiest way possible. And after 20+ years we have found it. People are use to doing things like they do, I am not going to start bucking because you say it is the best way, and you have stated that you won't do an elk without bucking. Matt R. , is having problems with his hides coming out consistantly good, if he is a brain tanner as he claims to be, then why does he have to consult a chemical tanning company to get advise on how to do his hides? I have offered to help him learn how to brain tan, but he isn't interested. You can't push a method for years, make bookoo bucks from it, and then admitt it doesn't work very well. I guess if I added a cup of brains to my paint I could say I brainpainted my house. haha. Sort of the same thing isn't it? I don't expect you to start bucking because I say it works, however, how can you knock bucking if you've never tryed it? How do you know your way is the easiest? I have tryed pre- smoking extensively and will give it a go again, without bucking, just cause I like to experiment. In fact, did a pre-smoked deer hide a couple weeks ago without bucking and it came out fine, but with a bit more work than I usually have to do. I can't speak for Matt, but it sounds like he was experimenting with the lime and it didn't work out so well. All of us have problems when we try new things at times. It's still brains that are used to dress and soften the hide either way, along with work, chemicals are involved either way and both methods were used by natives, I don't see how one is somehow more pure than another.
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elk
Mar 5, 2008 11:51:34 GMT -5
Post by longtrail on Mar 5, 2008 11:51:34 GMT -5
Paskinner, We won't try the bucking because of all the complaints I have heard over the years and about it on this as well as other sites. Seems a lot of folks are just tired of the mess and working on hides that don't soften. Matt came to visit us years ago to learn the way we were tanning, using the pre-smoke method. He brought one of his bucked hides to work on to show us how his technique worked so well. We noticed that his hide was rubbery the whole time, and When finished, our hide was soft and his failed to soften. I guess at that point we figured if HE, cant produce a hide as nice as ours, why use his technique. He explained all the steps he used, and was surprised at how little steps and time it took for us to do a hide from start to finish. I don't know how he does his hides now, but at that time he was softening them by hand and they were coming out wavey, we put ours on a frame and it came out flat. You know, I don't recall him mentioning that learning experience anywhere in his information. We also had a guy come out to learn how we did hides, that had been to McPhearsons classes. He was amazed a how little we had to work the hide. He said that at McPhearsons, him (the guy who came to visit) and two other guys worked like hell on one hide to get one hide to come out soft. The only person who ever returned a hide of ours was Matt, who didn't fail to mention it on his site, which I guess was good for his bucking business. We have a new client who use to purchase hides from the cavejunction buckers, he says our hides are stronger, have a better texture over all, and do not stretchout when made into something. Another reason we won't bother with trying bucking. I think a lot of new tanners unfortunaltey, visited matt's site, because it is so easily found, got sucked into the bucking technique, because it is the one most praised, and have not tried other methods that might be easier and simpler for them. All I want to do is share information on a method that works for us, and a method, other than bucking, that might work for them as well, without all the chemicals to deal with. Just an example of some mocs made with the bucking method by the cavejunction buckers, as opposed the the ones made with our hides. The bucked ones are dense with not much loft and are actually rather stiff. The ones with our hides, the smoked ones, are softer and have better texture over all. Another reason we don't buck. So between people complaining about bucking, seeing for ourselves the results Matt himself got using bucking, having clients tell us how much better our hides are than those that were bucked, especially because they dont stretch out when made into something. well, we see no reason to mess with it. Why make tanning hides any more complicated that it needs to be? As far as what I am not realizing, same goes for you. You obviously havn't Realized how to use our method effecentially. I don't need a science lesson, thanks.
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elk
Mar 5, 2008 13:30:33 GMT -5
Post by paskinner on Mar 5, 2008 13:30:33 GMT -5
Paskinner, As far as what I am not realizing, same goes for you. You obviously havn't Realized how to use our method effecentially. I Could be. I'll be glad to send you some hide samples of mine when I order the DVD, so you can see that they are not dense. I have loads of customer complimants, many saying best hides we've ever seen, some of which have been using braintan for longer then I've been around, and many who have bought from this or that source in the past. BTW, cool beadwork.
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